Discuss/share about your strategies (for min bid 4 games only)

[samuelchua2008]

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Hi all regular min4 players,

Thought it's a good idea (though not entirely original) to create a thread for sharing and discussion of strategies in min4 games and giving constructive feedbacks and opinions. Here's how we can do it.

1. Attach a screenshot of your cards (all 13 of them) either during bidding phase or right after you have bidded


2. Share your strategy (with reasons), which includes:

• The suit/level that you would bid (min 4)
• The partner card that you would call
• Your estimated losses
• How it actually turned out to be (optional)
• Any other strategies involved in that game

3. Ask peers to share their opinions or what they would have done in the same situation


I will be doing my sharing soon, after i got hold of the screenshots of situations which i feel are worth discussing and seeking opinions. If you would like to start, please go ahead.

Hope to see regular posts coming into this thread.
Thanks.

[RonaldoSing]

Originally Posted by samuelchua2008

Hi all regular min4 players,

Thought it's a good idea (though not entirely original) to create a thread for sharing and discussion of strategies in min4 games and giving constructive feedbacks and opinions. Here's how we can do it.

1. Attach a screenshot of your cards (all 13 of them) either during bidding phase or right after you have bidded


2. Share your strategy (with reasons), which includes:

• The suit/level that you would bid (min 4)
• The partner card that you would call
• Your estimated losses
• How it actually turned out to be (optional)
• Any other strategies involved in that game

3. Ask peers to share their opinions or what they would have done in the same situation


I will be doing my sharing soon, after i got hold of the screenshots of situations which i feel are worth discussing and seeking opinions. If you would like to start, please go ahead.

Hope to see regular posts coming into this thread.
Thanks.

U doing a PhD or Masters on zany ah???

[samuelchua2008]

Originally Posted by RonaldoSing

U doing a PhD or Masters on zany ah???

You missed out on the big picture.

Main intention is to get people to share good ideas and hopefully improve the overall quality of plays during min4 games.

[tlautrec]

Originally Posted by samuelchua2008

You missed out on the big picture.

Main intention is to get people to share good ideas and hopefully improve the overall quality of plays during min4 games.

'quality of play'?

I think you missed something too sir; the quality of play is almost the same here, it's the style of play that really differentiate the players. An aggressive player's idea of good play may be another humji player's idea of bad play. Today I overtook my partner's sure winner with a trump to regain control and try to establish my side suit, but I was merciless kicked out of the room because they demanded an apology when I did nothing wrong.

I was certain there was nothing wrong with my quality of play. We won the game but my partner did not trust me. I believe he/she is not a player with low calibre anyways; two uncompatible partners will just result in bad play that's all.

I do appreciate your goodwill, though. ^_^

[rtkl_gal]

wow sam, u bringing teaching all e way here? haha!!

[samuelchua2008]

Okay, i shall kickstart the discussion.

Take a look at the following situation and share with everyone what you would have done (actions, strategies etc with reasons to support).

[tlautrec]

simple and clear cut. 4clubs with Ace club as partner. first lead will most likely be dimes/hearts.

If opening lead is dimes, just play low; if opening lead is spades, cash spade ace, heart ace, lead out small spade; if opening lead is hearts, cash heart ace, spade ace, lead low spade.

If the opening leads were really dimes, wait for 1/2 rounds (probably) to gain control, and cash out hearts and spades. unlikely that someone has a dime singleton. most likely, doubleton. If A/K dime not with partner it's okay.

So, some 5 tricks later (lost 2 in dimes, won 2 in hearts and spades and lost 1 in spades), you probably get a ruff. Take the ruff and exit with a small club; draw trumps (count your cards). If you're in the unlikely unlucky event that the Ace of club is the single honor that your partner has, and the break were bad (Jxxx) the game is over.

If clubs broke well (Jack dropped) and during the worst case scenarios of a good break; i.e. you had to draw 3/4 rounds of trump (it broke 6-1-4-2 (jack clubs here) or 6-3 (jack club here)-2-2.

Now, if the game went ahead with the ace and king dime being shown already, draw 2 more rounds of trump till you are left with 1 club, 2 dimes in your hand. a few dime discards should have gone underway. If your opponents discarded wrongly, then the last dime, 8 of dimes should take the final trick home. in other words your total losers are a spade, and 2 dimes.

If dimes have not been played earlier and you're left with 2 clubs (after 3 rounds of trump draw) and 4 dimes, play out a low dime and see what happens. the partnership would have been out by now so you would just pray for the best that partner at least has the jack of dimes. So you'll still lose 1 spade, and 2 dimes.

So, in conclusion:

Best case scenario: partner has king spades, ace/king dimes together with your last missing key card, ace clubs.
okay scenarios: partner has a spade honor/ king of hearts/maybe a good dime honor
bad but still makeable scenarios: partner has nothing except for ace clubs and maybe a heart honor/low dime honor
Scenarios where this contract fails: partner has only ace club as honor and partner only has 1 club; partner has ace club, little clubs and honors in hearts, the most useless suit; clubs broke badly: one of the opponents had 4 clubs with a jack AND partner has only the ace of clubs (because if parter has another small club, he can easily play and finesse the jack into your KQ10); and lastly, an early ruff in dimes by one of the opponents. Oh, and of course, bad play by partner/self (this happens when you're playing this hand in various non-sober states which makes it so hard to name all)

Basically the chances that the worst case scenario occuring is very low. This is a 'sure-go' hand. there's no doubt about it. 4clubs sub-contract is pretty cold.

A point to note: if you had called the ace of dimes or king of spades, it would just reduce 1 loser in dimes/spades but add 1 loser in clubs, theoretically. So it doesnt really matter who you call; just bear in mind that always ONLY ASSUME THAT YOUR PARTNER CAN WIN 1, as for the rest, you gotta do it yourself, well hopefully.

[Kiwi8]

Very good analysis there.

Just one disagreement. I still dun understand why the call for non-trump Aces when the bid winner does not have Ace Trump.

Do understand that the Ace Trump will always win a trick in any round that it's played. So if the bid winner does not call Ace Trump, he has to take this into account a sure-lose trick. Hence he should play safe and call Ace Trump, hoping that the Ace Trump partner has other winners in the other suits.

[tlautrec]

Originally Posted by Kiwi8

Very good analysis there.

Just one disagreement. I still dun understand why the call for non-trump Aces when the bid winner does not have Ace Trump.

Do understand that the Ace Trump will always win a trick in any round that it's played. So if the bid winner does not call Ace Trump, he has to take this into account a sure-lose trick. Hence he should play safe and call Ace Trump, hoping that the Ace Trump partner has other winners in the other suits.

because this version of bridge does NOT allow playing of trump unless trump is broken. So aces of other suits are sources of more immediate control. Because suit contracts are usually played with other people leading from suits other than the trump, so having more controls at the start of the game will definitely help you steer the game in your direction better. Take the above example:

If declarer had called ace clubs instead, what if the opponents played 2 round of diamonds (A/K) and played a round of spade? now declarer still can't draw trump; and has to cash ace heart and exit in either diamond or spade. let's say declarer exit in diamonds; the chances that it gets trumped (this is already the third round) is actually pretty high; so pretend it REALLY did get trumped, and now opponent shows up with the king of spades. lol. and now that ace of clubs is really useless.

On the other hand, ace of clubs is a loser, but later in the game. hence declarer can actually have the chance of drawing trumps before letting his own winners be subjected to other people's trumping. Basically to sum that wall of text up; the process of gaining trump control is actually more important than the trump drawing process. =)

If this were contract bridge (don't need to break trump then can draw trump) then Ace of the trump suit will definitely be a more useful card than ace of other suits. ^^

note: this does NOT apply when the trump holdings is different the shown one. e.g. QJ10xxxx or KJ10xxxx. a different set of reasoning apply ^^

[Kiwi8]

Originally Posted by tlautrec

because this version of bridge does NOT allow playing of trump unless trump is broken. So aces of other suits are sources of more immediate control. Because suit contracts are usually played with other people leading from suits other than the trump, so having more controls at the start of the game will definitely help you steer the game in your direction better. Take the above example:

If declarer had called ace clubs instead, what if the opponents played 2 round of diamonds (A/K) and played a round of spade? now declarer still can't draw trump; and has to cash ace heart and exit in either diamond or spade. let's say declarer exit in diamonds; the chances that it gets trumped (this is already the third round) is actually pretty high; so pretend it REALLY did get trumped, and now opponent shows up with the king of spades. lol. and now that ace of clubs is really useless.

On the other hand, ace of clubs is a loser, but later in the game. hence declarer can actually have the chance of drawing trumps before letting his own winners be subjected to other people's trumping. Basically to sum that wall of text up; the process of gaining trump control is actually more important than the trump drawing process. =)

If this were contract bridge (don't need to break trump then can draw trump) then Ace of the trump suit will definitely be a more useful card than ace of other suits. ^^

note: this does NOT apply when the trump holdings is different the shown one. e.g. QJ10xxxx or KJ10xxxx. a different set of reasoning apply ^^

Yes, if u have taken into account that the Ace Trump will always win a set when planning your strategy, then by all means call Ace of non-trump.

[samuelchua2008]

Originally Posted by tlautrec

simple and clear cut. 4clubs with Ace club as partner. first lead will most likely be dimes/hearts.

If opening lead is dimes, just play low; if opening lead is spades, cash spade ace, heart ace, lead out small spade; if opening lead is hearts, cash heart ace, spade ace, lead low spade.

If the opening leads were really dimes, wait for 1/2 rounds (probably) to gain control, and cash out hearts and spades. unlikely that someone has a dime singleton. most likely, doubleton. If A/K dime not with partner it's okay.

So, some 5 tricks later (lost 2 in dimes, won 2 in hearts and spades and lost 1 in spades), you probably get a ruff. Take the ruff and exit with a small club; draw trumps (count your cards). If you're in the unlikely unlucky event that the Ace of club is the single honor that your partner has, and the break were bad (Jxxx) the game is over.

If clubs broke well (Jack dropped) and during the worst case scenarios of a good break; i.e. you had to draw 3/4 rounds of trump (it broke 6-1-4-2 (jack clubs here) or 6-3 (jack club here)-2-2.

Now, if the game went ahead with the ace and king dime being shown already, draw 2 more rounds of trump till you are left with 1 club, 2 dimes in your hand. a few dime discards should have gone underway. If your opponents discarded wrongly, then the last dime, 8 of dimes should take the final trick home. in other words your total losers are a spade, and 2 dimes.

If dimes have not been played earlier and you're left with 2 clubs (after 3 rounds of trump draw) and 4 dimes, play out a low dime and see what happens. the partnership would have been out by now so you would just pray for the best that partner at least has the jack of dimes. So you'll still lose 1 spade, and 2 dimes.

So, in conclusion:

Best case scenario: partner has king spades, ace/king dimes together with your last missing key card, ace clubs.
okay scenarios: partner has a spade honor/ king of hearts/maybe a good dime honor
bad but still makeable scenarios: partner has nothing except for ace clubs and maybe a heart honor/low dime honor
Scenarios where this contract fails: partner has only ace club as honor and partner only has 1 club; partner has ace club, little clubs and honors in hearts, the most useless suit; clubs broke badly: one of the opponents had 4 clubs with a jack AND partner has only the ace of clubs (because if parter has another small club, he can easily play and finesse the jack into your KQ10); and lastly, an early ruff in dimes by one of the opponents. Oh, and of course, bad play by partner/self (this happens when you're playing this hand in various non-sober states which makes it so hard to name all)

Basically the chances that the worst case scenario occuring is very low. This is a 'sure-go' hand. there's no doubt about it. 4clubs sub-contract is pretty cold.

A point to note: if you had called the ace of dimes or king of spades, it would just reduce 1 loser in dimes/spades but add 1 loser in clubs, theoretically. So it doesnt really matter who you call; just bear in mind that always ONLY ASSUME THAT YOUR PARTNER CAN WIN 1, as for the rest, you gotta do it yourself, well hopefully.

Hi, i saw another thread in this forum discussing about difference between contract and floating bridge. I look at some of the terms that you used in your post (quoted above, i've underlined those terms), i believe they are common terminology in contract bridge games, but i'm not so sure if they are applied in floating bridge as well.

I also agree with one of the forumers in that thread when he said that most people are here to enjoy floating bridge as a "easier version" of contract bridge (sorry can't find the right description), which means that most of the zany players are most probably not savvy to the terms used in contract bridge. Would appreciate if you can define those terms for the benefit of the vast majority here.

As for myself, i will continue to use layman terms that are easily understood. E.g. sets instead of tricks

Thanks.

[tlautrec]

Originally Posted by samuelchua2008

Hi, i saw another thread in this forum discussing about difference between contract and floating bridge. I look at some of the terms that you used in your post (quoted above, i've underlined those terms), i believe they are common terminology in contract bridge games, but i'm not so sure if they are applied in floating bridge as well.

I also agree with one of the forumers in that thread when he said that most people are here to enjoy floating bridge as a "easier version" of contract bridge (sorry can't find the right description), which means that most of the zany players are most probably not savvy to the terms used in contract bridge. Would appreciate if you can define those terms for the benefit of the vast majority here.

As for myself, i will continue to use layman terms that are easily understood. E.g. sets instead of tricks

Thanks.

Sure sure:

playing low = playing a low card! like 2-7 is usually considered low.
cash out = play a sure winner; e.g. an Ace
ruff = trump
exit = the card that you lead with intention to pass control to another player.
sub-contract =any contract at the following levels => Clubs/dimes: 4 or lower; Spades/hearts: 3 or lower; NT: 2 or lower.

And you're most welcome.

[Kiwi8]

Originally Posted by samuelchua2008

Okay, i shall kickstart the discussion.

Take a look at the following situation and share with everyone what you would have done (actions, strategies etc with reasons to support).

For this my analysis is simple.

Assuming a bid of 4 clubs, there are 4 sure-losers in 2/3/8 Diamonds, 4 Spades. I will call the Ace Club as the partner, though I agree that it might be possible to call Ace of other non-trump suit. But ultimately, partner needs to win 2 sets (tricks), so this is a small risk that can be tolerated.

[samuelchua2008]

Thanks for the wonderful sharing of opinions from tlautrec and kiwi8 so far. Hope to see contribution from more regular min4 players.

Here's another situation (below). I really need help on this, as i had a few tries bidding either NT or non-NT suit, and most of the time end up in defeat. Appreciate your opinions.

[Kiwi8]

Originally Posted by samuelchua2008

Thanks for the wonderful sharing of opinions from tlautrec and kiwi8 so far. Hope to see contribution from more regular min4 players.

Here's another situation (below). I really need help on this, as i had a few tries bidding either NT or non-NT suit, and most of the time end up in defeat. Appreciate your opinions.

For a min 4 bid, I feel that it is not possible to bid for this hand, whether for a trump bid or a NT bid. It has sure-losers in 2/5 clubs, 8 diamonds, 5 hearts, 7/J spades.